It feel like we’re losing to Google, day by day. They aren’t killing AOSP directly, but they are making it useless step by step.
Now it’s Google Play Services, Play Integrity checks, installation source checks… more and more apps just refuse to run without GMS. Banking apps? Most of them don’t work. And it’s only getting worse. I run vanilla AOSP on my main profile, no Play Services. I keep GMS only in my work profile for the apps that absolutely need it. But now even some regular apps that don’t need any play services won’t work on my main profile anymore. They simply block your from running , like le chat.
Maps is google’s most important app there is no way to run without play services. Sure we can use webview or gmaps wv, but they don’t provide turn-by-turn directions. Earlier maps used to work without play services, but two years ago, an update stopped it from working. Now that old version is out of date and no longer works.
Google is slowly making GMS very important to run. The problem with GMS is they require to run as system app and has to have all the permissions by default.
Hope EU puts pressure to make google allow apps to run independently without GMS or atleast install them as user apps(like graphene os sandboxed play services).
If we keep going on like this, AOSP can only run fdroid apps in the future.
EU won’t be too friendly either given the nature of their recent identification app. You should still write to your legislators, but they’re a mostly tech-illiterate bunch, so expect it to be a low ROI activity.
Really do consider donating to projects like GrapheneOS. The GrapheneOS team are a very passionate and clever group, and I’d like to think that they can at least give us something to work with, even if Google completely cuts the cord. Hopefully they can also secure an additional revenue stream once they release their own phone.
If it really does all fall through and there’s no deGoogled way to run Android apps, I’ll keep a separate phone, preferably with a removable battery, with regular Android just to host the proprietary apps. Treat it as a work phone, i.e. power off when not needed, don’t connect to my main home network, don’t do anything that doesn’t need to be done on it. Proprietary apps only make up a small fraction of my mobile workflow, so everything else stays on another phone that respects my privacy.
they’re a mostly tech-illiterate bunch
Y’all keep saying this… These people are not stupid, they are corrupt. Start calling spade a spade. You are giving them something to hide behind jfc.
I am thinking a tablet with Linux and a hotspot rather than phone number. Maybe supplement with a dumb phone in a Faraday bag for your phone, Iike on Swisscows.
There are a million maps apps, even google itself has two (Waze). Banking is easily accessible thru a web browser. Also, rooting your phone gives you ability to fake a lot of the requirements to make stubborn apps run.
rooting your phone gives you ability to fake a lot of the requirements to make stubborn apps run.
Rooting also completely breaks the ability to run some apps with no recourse for spoofing the fact that it’s a rooted device.
Which ones? It’s pretty easy to pass Strong Integrity.
Passing strong integrity check isn’t always enough. My banking and government 2FA still don’t work on rooted devices (or graphene with locked bootloader and play services)
My bank is accessible via web only if I authorize the login with the iOS or Android app - there are no alternatives.
What is a good alternative that actually does navigation and searches on places as well as gmaps? I’ve been using OsmAnd and it’s absolutely dogshit compared to it. Even the navigation, the arguably most important part, is pretty bad.
Edit: actually spent some time looking again, and CoMaps does this quite well. This is replacing OsmAnd+ for me.
Co maps is mostly garbage for places. Is missing my Wegmans for fucks sake 🤣
Just a heads up for your continued testing.
I don’t know what Wegmans is, but all the places I’ve tested so far was found, even small local artisanal shops in the town I live in.
Go ahead and contribute places you are missing to openstreetmaps.
CoMaps uses OpenStreetMap data, which is populated by the public, so you can fix your problem easily yourself by submitting the data you need that’s missing.
You can do this right from inside CoMaps, but also StreetComplete is another great app option for doing so.
I’ve done this for missing stuff in my area, my edits got verified and accepted very quickly. It’s much nicer than waiting for Google to maybe update their shit when it’s wrong.
And I have the oppositie experience. I find gmaps routing much too agressive. Agree on the search issue.
I’m not sure what you mean by “aggressive routing”?
Gmaps often tries to be clever and recommends you to go off the main road onto some smaller one. This might be ok in USA but where I live its annoying at best. OsmAnd is much better in this regard.
It does it in the US as well, and I find it infuriating. Especially when many of it’s “shortcuts” are worse for reasons that its algorithm doesn’t detect, like major pot holes, heavy pedestrian traffic, lack of visible street signs, etc.
I’m in Scandinavia and haven’t had issues with gmaps routing. The routing of OsmAnd is fine, but the navigation visualization is insanely bad, when you turn your phone horizontal they fill the whole screen with basically useless blank bars both at the top and bottom instead of just showing the map and turn-by-turn instructions in a corner like gmaps. That combined with the less than useless searching (if you don’t know the specific address of a place you’re pretty much SOoL) makes it really bad IME.
if you don’t know the specific address of a place you’re pretty much SOoL
Look the address up and put it into the map app…problem solved.
Yes but that’s the nuisance you don’t want with an application specifically made to make navigation easier. I want good simple workflows, not shitty clunky workarounds.
I am sorry I tried many many maps apps, but none come close enough to replace google maps completely. No reviews, photos, live traffic, raw data etc. Google maps is truly miles ahead of the alternatives, especially in India.
There’s many navigation apps that have traffic, like Magic Earth which 100% runs without GMS.
For review you can use gmaps wv or TripAdvisor.
Here We Go has traffic and TripAdvisor integration, but I’m not sure whether it runs without GMS.
CoMaps has it on the docket to add opt in traffic at some point.
I can’t speak to any other countries, but in the states, Magic Earth has been great for me. Been using it for over two years now, several different regions of the USA. It’s not as good as Google Maps, but it’s plenty good enough for my needs.
Navigation and routing is solid, traffic data is acceptable, and the dashcam feature is awesome.
It’s easier and nicer. But it’s also shitty because of what you mentioned.
The thing is, that’s how it’s going to stay unless people stop using it. You can get this info you mentioned somewhere else, or simply don’t need it, as I said, yes it’s harder and less nice to live without it, but it’s not like you can’t live without live traffic data or whatever. Start using CoMaps, contribute to open street map, leave reviews on other review aggregators, etc etc
But why do you need it all in one app? As you’ve noted, there are alternatives like GMaps WV that deliver all the other stuff. Combine that with any other navigation app and you have everything Google Maps delivers, without relying on its app.
These questions 🤣
Because it’s easier and it works better.
tHeSe qUeStIoNs
It was one question, and it’s a relevant one. If you are worried about Google cutting support for Google Maps on AOSP, the solution is not to double down on the Google ecosystem. There’s not going to be some magical perfect replacement for Google Maps out of nowhere, the only way its competitors improve is if people use them.
If you don’t want to, that’s fine, just don’t start crying when Google pulls support out from under you.
Photos and streetview are the most important features for me, otherwise I would be 10x more anxious going somewhere for the first time.
Idk about India but here in the Netherlands almost all google reviews are fake. They’re not a good indicator of quality.
True, but the pictures are useful though. I can tell a decent pizza from a shite one from a picture.
Banking is easily accessible thru a web browser
Until your bank 2nd factor requires google play services and all the banks in your country have the same requirement.
Yeah, that’s my case as well with my main bank. So I have a separate phone that remains off until I need it (and some other crappy apps for electricity, customs and other stuff). Otherwise I’m still rocking my trusty Pixel 8 Pro running on GrapheneOS from day 1. Now, it is highly likely that, from Pixel 10 and in GrapheneOS won’t be able to keep developing (I certainly hope I’m wrong), so I’m thinking on switching my 8 Pro for a 9Pro XL and keep it until GrapheneOS lands and agreement with an OEM to launch their own devices.
I guess all we can do is wait and see what happens in a month or so.
Looks like you’re Brazilian too, friend. Here is almost impossible to use banks through webapps cause all of them require their apps to 2fa so you’re obligated to download and use their apps. Luckly I’ve found bank apps that I can use on my lineage with microg phone.
Do you have access to credit unions?
I highly reccomend comaps which has turn-by-turn directions and doesn’t require Google services.
Wow, supports Android Auto too!
Edit: Says it supports Android Auto, to be clear - not tested by me, and issue(s) reported below.
I run GrapheneOS and organic maps was working fine with android auto. You have to enter in developer options to allow third party apps tho. I was using it in a restricted profile with only proprietary apps (like banking apps). Comaps is a fork of organic maps so it should work too.
zod000
Were you running the version on Google Play or the one from f-droid? I have a suspicion that the Google Play version has some extra sliminess that allows it to work with Android Auto.
Yes I was running the Google Play version. AFAIK it doesn’t work with the version from FOSS platforms unfortunately. It was a few month ago. I got tired of it and ditched it altogether. I find that a phone holder does the job with much less hassle.
I have the FOSS version installed and I ended up buying a phone holder as well. Music playing apps can with with AA, but it looks like navigation doesn’t unless there is some trick I haven’t figured out.
You sure about this? I haven’t been able to get it, or any other maps app on GrapheneOS, to play nice with Android Auto.
Not at all, no! Just going off the support article that says it does. Only just installed it, will try it out with my car this weekend at the latest.
Please respond back if you can get it to work, navigation has always been a big sticking point with using GrapheneOS.
Will do, I’m also running stock on a Find N5 though, so not apples to apples with Graphene by any means.
But location services dont work without play services.
GPS works without play services but if you want more accurate location then you can turn this on.
It never worked for me :(
CoMaps is quite nice.
There are also still companies selling navigation devices that mount in a car windshield, assuming the car doesn’t already have one built in.
Pro tip - those navigation devices also often have an accident camera that records if it feels an impact - which is a good idea anyway.
transit routing still doesn’t work iirc, though gtfs stuff is in development
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I mostly agree with what you’re saying. But it’s really easy to make an argument for why an alternative works perfectly when you say “you don’t actually need that” every time something comes up that doesn’t work.
With a web browser and user agent spoofing, that’s basically how it works. I don’t want any Facebook/Meta apps on my phone, so I use a desktop Google Chrome rule for all Meta URLs in my browser and user the web versions. Mobile is slowly taking over, but most things have a web version.
Unfortunately, that doesn’t work for everything. The Quest 3 requires an Android or iOS device to set up. At least an old cell phone on a throwaway Google account works for most of these, since they don’t need to be used often.
Yeah, stop using shitty googol.
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Yeah, this is a problem. I attempted to switch to GrapheneOS just a month ago and had to roll back to stock Android. One of my banking apps worked, but 3 others didn’t. My 2FA app didn’t work. I stopped receiving important texts as they were previously RCS and that refused to validate no matter what I did.
Google has made it extremely hard to degoogle.
One of my banking apps worked, but 3 others didn’t.
Same issue, I just did web browser instead
My 2FA app didn’t work.
I suggest just exporting and using a different 2FA app, especially an open source one like Aegis
I stopped receiving important texts as they were previously RCS and that refused to validate no matter what
RCS on GrapheneOS is very finicky and requires using AppOps to enable
READ_DEVICE_IDENTIFIERS, and you have to let carrier services and google messages have more permissions to work. You also might have to deregister your previous phone to use the number (i.e. my old iPhone still had my number in the settings, had to remove it). There’s a very long GrapheneOS thread about it, but the link should be the solution.I suggest just exporting and using a different 2FA app, especially an open source one like Aegis
Authy dropped their desktop app and killed the ability to export. I will have to start from scratch, but I definitely plan to.
I spent a week with that discussion your linked plus several other posts, I just couldn’t get it working. I might have better luck next time I try it though.
Yeah, I got fucked by Authy too and did it the hard way last year.
The RCS forum post was very tedious and I came back a few months later cause RCS broke, but it’s been good for almost a year now so I think I got it. Some extra details to note are your carrier, deregistring old phones, verifying app permissions, and just waiting a week or so.
I totally understand your frustration though, as I went through it 😅
EDIT: Do not mention the fickle one, or you shall foolishly anger the RCS gods and curse your fate like I have done. (Translation: the fucker stopped working this week)
With respect to 2FA, if you want to be more ready for any future next time, you could migrate to an open-source TOTP app. E.g. andOTP. I use this one, it’s fine. The underlying standards don’t change in decades, so you can choose any compatible client and be without trouble for years and years. And it may be good to do in any case, googlified phone or not. Good apps also tend to provide password-protected backups.
I have no knowledge about RCS though, never used it so can’t tell. Otherwise GrapheneOS user for ~2 years, before that LineageOS, before that CopperheadOS for another few years.
Your absolutely right and I will be moving to an open source TOTP solution going forward, it just sucks that great services keep getting enshitified and we have to keep moving to better pastures. LastPass to Bitwarden, now Authy to something else.
Why not just access your financial institutions in a web browser?
Convenience and security probably.
The website version of a lot of banks require you login (each time) with a customer numer and then random letters from your password and or pin, which takes forever so I never bother unless I need the website.
Im (more) paranoid whenever I use a sensitive website. Quadruple checking the domain name, am i on https (even tho i use no-http and have a password manager). It’s a bit more relaxing using an app.
Theres probably some security downsides (other than user error), but a modern banking site shouldn’t suffer much since they invest heavily in locking down their shtuff.
That was an inconvenience, but one I could make if it was the only issue. It was more the total accumulation of things. My 2FA app pulling support for “unsigned” operating systems coupled with missing work texts due to RCS failure were the main straws to break the camel’s back. Having to find an alternative and then manually change all 2FA was almost a deal breaker in itself. That played into using a web browser for my financial institution access.
Missing texts is definitely a deal breaker. I hate how RCS was championed as the “open” protocol and yet only google and samsung are able to implement it… we were lied to. Or i feel lied to idk i thought it was an open knowledge spec when we were hearing about forcing apple to support it.
Work texts go to the work phone. Work 2FA also on work phone. I use a hardware TAN generator for web banking.
My work 2FA is physical token based, it is my personal 2FA that causing me problems. Email and text authentication is insecure enough that I try and use a software authenticator whenever possible.
Great point about the work phone. I don’t want a work phone as I don’t have any desire to be reachable 24/7 outside of the rotating week I’m on call, but if I was expected to have email and Teams and everything on my phone I would definitely require one. Thankfully my work texts are all for team updates, heads up about issues, scheduling matters, etc, but I still consider those to be important while not riding to a separate work phone
There is always a trade-off with privacy and security. It’s totally okay to decide you prefer convenience over privacy.
If you wanted to give it another shot:
- You could use a different 2FA app - I know Bitwarden works well
- You can use a soft phone SMS, bonus that you can send and receive from a computer
That was why I wanted to move to GrapheneOS, I could selectively use Google services or apps for convenience while still being more secure than stock Android. I’ll have to plan my next attempt out instead of Yolo and adapt, lol.
I do plan to migrate to a new 2FA, but Authy made that hard by getting rid of their desktop app so you can’t port and have to go to each service and manually sign up a new app one by one. I tend to boycott services when they get that anticonsumer/anticompetitive out of principle.
Google has made it extremely hard to degoogle.
Just remember that there are no nice reasons why they are working this hard to keep your phone captive.
We can argue about how bad it will get, but there’s only worse things coming from this effort.
Oh, totally, which is why I am working towards as much decoupling as possible. I plan to replace my Nest gear with Ubiquity for cameras and stuff as I can afford it, and eventually set up my own offline automation server. This can only end badly for consumers.
The collusion between services like Authy and Google indicates this to me, but it’s also effective and means I have to pivot in slower degrees. I am encountering similar issues moving to Linux from Windows, so this is a full Silicone Valley issue.
Some people say you can use a de-Googled Chromium browser to enjoy the fruits of Chrome without supporting Google’s ad business. I say just use Firefox.
By the same token, when some people say to buy an Android phone and deal with CFW, I say just get an iPhone.
I mean either way, Google gets your money and you contribute to Google’s market share by buying one. Not using Google Play Services as an individual does not hurt them nearly as much as their efforts to keep you from doing so implies it does.
Of course, switching phones can be costly, but if you’re in the market for a new one, I would say if you’re going to pay roughly the same price, let it be the more private one, albeit the one that is further from open source. I mean it runs iOS, which is a stripped down version of macOS, which is UNIX certified, but you can’t run a few apps that Apple doesn’t approve of. Fortnite is back and emulators are back though, so a lot of bases are covered.
That said… the keyboard sucks. Sometimes if I’m gonna be typing (e.g. using Lemmy), I’ll actually turn on my old Galaxy S10, just to use Gboard (which is on iOS but sucks there). I like my 16PM for a lot of things, but typing isn’t one of them.
So yes. You can stop rewarding Google’s bad behavior by not buying their phones. Draw a hard line between your personal data and their servers. But in doing so, consider getting in bed with a different monster rather than “the devil you know.” It’s not an easy decision. And, as a guy who’s been mainly on iPhone for almost 10 years… I kinda want a Pixel. Maybe not the newest one, but I mean, I’m using a 6-year-old Galaxy phone and it’s fine. I like both platforms. Both have their strengths. But I personally trust Apple more than Google. To each their own though.
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Sadly there are apps that don’t have an F-Droid replacement.
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I wish that was the case but there is no source code, not even a web app. That’s the problem with most of them.
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I stopped using Google Play Services 6 years ago. I only do my banking on PC. However, there are things I cannot do this. One example is, my local municipality’s public transportation app. It doesn’t have source code, it doesn’t have a web app, it doesn’t even have an API. I already cannot use its some parts due to its dependency of Google Play Services. Not having this app would just make my life harder.
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Garbage take.
I am with you on this!
Need to buy a VPN? check F-Droid first. Need any other utility? check F-Droid first, I am ready to suck up a lot of inconvenience with the apps that aren’t polished (Most of the time they are superior). Feeling generous? donate and help make the world a better place.
I sucked up a lot of inconvenience using Linux for last 2 decades or so, so I am well prepared.
We are in war with big tech, why would anyone think they would just let us win without a fight.
Le Chat is just a frontend for Mistral. There are a ton of free web UIs one can use for chat instead, like (ironically) Google AI Studio, Deepseek, Z AI. Or openrouter if you’re willing to pay for a bit of privacy. Or kobold lite. Or your own self hosted Open Web UI instance.
Run as many open source apps as you can is about the best option. Also, OSMAND does provide turn-by-turn directions.
What it does not do well is street addresses, so at times you may find that you have to use the GPS coordinates of the place you are going to in order to get directions.
It’s never had any trouble with street addresses for me. It’s using open street map so if there are addresses that aren’t right you can submit changes.
Where it has trouble for me is on long trips over great distances. If you ask it to route a 6-hour trip to another state through a couple of metropolitan areas It has a pretty good chance of sending you a non-optimal route.
I’ve found that it can get you to businesses fairly well. where I have seen failures is navigating to an individual’s home address. What you can do is you can get the nearby intersection of two roads fairly easily, but the home address is much more difficult.
It is only slightly on topic, but I’d like to give a hateful shout out to Ticketmaster/Live Nation’s new “mobile only” ticketed events that require you to have an iPhone or fully Google blessed Android phone. They do not allow you to use a QR code or printed ticket anymore, only their app with a constantly changing bare code or Google wallet (unsure of the IOS experience).
I am going to a concert this weekend and I either have to dig up some old phone that can work with this app or sell my tickets.
I stopped going. Fuck it. Not giving in to their bullshit.
I’ve been quietly boycotting them for over 13 years now, shortly after online scalpers started having their field day with their sites. It sucks not being able to go to any major shows but I have made myself compromise by going to small local shows only and it hasn’t been that bad.
Everyone votes with their wallets, so as long as people keep paying, they’ll keep making us jump through more and more hoops.
So messed up that they too are the scalpers. A band I liked put pressure on them and managed to catch them in their bullshit, but that is rare.
That’s how I’m feeling I will go after this concert since they already have my money.
It was the fees for me. Their CEO needs to be Luigi’d for leading a parasitic company that has made so many music venues go under.
The local folks probably deserve tye attendance more anyway. So many nepo babies…
I’ve never had an issue loading my tickets in the browser.
Then you weren’t at one of the new “mobile only” ticket events. https://help.ticketmaster.com/hc/en-us/articles/9786597785617-How-do-I-use-Mobile-Entry-tickets
Someone recently crack their shit code. Can use offline app after extract secret once. Will link once find.
Edit: https://conduition.io/coding/ticketmaster/ app (javascript) https://github.com/conduition/ticketgimp
Thanks, that might be a handy workaround.
Boop, source found.
Thanks!
Just go to the box office when you get there and present an ID that matches the name the tickets were purchased under. Depending on the venue, they will either print your ticket or text you a link that opens a page in your browser that can be scanned.
Everything I’ve read is that they only offer accommodations to people during time of purchase, and even then you’re basically at the mercy of the venue. I’m going to call them and see what I can do, but I don’t have high hopes.
Keep in mind GMS does not need to run as a system app. On GrapheneOS it does not.
At least for me only about 15% of my apps need GMS and I only run GMS in my private space which most of the time I lock.
So yes I do not like needing GMS but it is not so doom and gloom.
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Does what work? If you mean GMS sandboxing, that is ROM specific. Up to what the ROM supplier does.
Why would one need another ROM. GrapheneOS is one of the best. So is Google hardware in terms of lifetime cost, capability, and security. What other supplier gives 7 year support?
Generally with android it is best to choose the ROM and then the best hardware for it anyway. The best ROMs often have limited hardware support. There are not that many reasonable ROMs anyway. Nor are there many hardware choices that aupport most ROMs fully.
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Google phones are pretty widely available in many countries not just the US. But sure good point, there are many exceptions too.
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The big deal is how long a phone gets updates. If you divide Pixel a-series pricing by the 7 years of support, they are not that expensive.
What is expensive is buying a new phone everytime they go out of support. My old LG had maybe 1 year of updates when I got it years ago and it was a $250 phone. Still ran it for 6 years but most of that time had no updates which is not great.
My point is cost depends on how you measure it.
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I use Shelter to enable the work profile. It permits to copy apps between standard and work profile. So it is possible to have google services (with an account set I mean) in the work profile.
Apps like for Banks can’t be copied though. But most of the others can.
Maps?
Use OsmAnd and MagicEarth? I’ve been using it for years now. Works fine.
Also Theres comaps
I enjoy Organic Maps.
Comaps is the fork, we moved away from organic maps. You will find basically the same experience.
Comaps has been awesome for me
