- cross-posted to:
- linux@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- linux@lemmy.ml
Like y’all keep posting about it, praising it, giving it free advertisement, and what not.
But the dev is a fascist, the discord server is a fascist bar, and the project thus is fascist.
I’ve met people who were harassed, I browsed through now deleted messages of Vaxry using slurrs and more.
So I wonder is if the people who post constantly about it know and are complicit, or just don’t know and would act otherwise?
It gets tiring to see the project be given “fame” when I know the roots of the plants are founded in toxicity & abuse.
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is this the part where i get to smugly use i3? :P
bruh
The main reason why I use open source is precisely because I don’t need or want to worry about this crap. The software is as much property of humanity as it is of the creator, it is basically just knowledge
This! If it is Free Software, it respects everyone’s freedom. If I don’t like the developer, I will not buy them a coffee. If I don’t like the software practices of the developer, a fork is in order (e.g. Oracle with OpenOffice --> LibreOffice)
Absolutely this. Too many people think that because you use some open source software from some fascist dev that “obviously you’re fascist, too”.
Bigotry: obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction, in particular prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.
Hating on Hyprland users that know what’s going on but still really like the software fits this definition. Plus, isn’t the biggest kick in the face having the exact people you hate use and enjoy your software?
This is exactly why I switched from PolyMC to Prism Launcher. The PolyMC dev was a fascist prick and an anti-gay/trans activist. His fear was that PolyMC was “going to get taken over by the gays due to the name having Poly in it (as in polysexual)”, so he started banning all the devs who disagreed with him or even made a joke about it.
Those devs forked the project and, to rub salt in the wound, made the icon rainbow. But guess what? Its the same software. They forked it because they still liked it and wanted to use it. The software itself had absolutely nothing to do with the dev.
I got the impression that the PolyMC situation was quite different, with that developer masking it and doing a minority of the work, but after one change made by the rest of the developers they snapped, used their control over the repository to remove the rest of the maintainers and take sole control over the repository.
I was aware of some shenanigans and hostility from PolyMC and never used it, but I got the impression there were no major outward signs before that happened?
There really wasn’t a lot of ramp up to it but there were Discord screenshots of his toxic personality being put down in r/feedthebeast at the time and (iirc) one of the devs that actually did do work on the project quoted the whole “poly” thing. Dunno if there was a screen of it, though.
But even before that, there was apparently some horrible stuff that MultiMC did that resulted in PolyMC and other forks in the first place. That whole application has a shady past, tbh.
I’m just trying to say, use Hyprland if you like Hyprland. There WILL be a fork of it someday. That is always guaranteed to happen when a dev becomes a piece of shit. Its all about when it is going to happen, but by all means move over to the fork when it does.
As long as its open source and money does not change hands, you are in no way directly supporting a fascist dev. Once that software is on your PC that software is yours to do what you want with it, not the dev’s. By all means, design your Hyprland as pro-trans with trans flag colors. I endorse that wholeheartedly, in fact. 🏳️⚧️
I just don’t like when people get auto-labeled for something they use or do. Its basic stereotyping and it drives me nuts. A lot of people just don’t want to give the benefit of the doubt to others before even getting to know them. Getting branded because of a piece of software you enjoy is just… its up there, at any rate. I really can’t put words to how frustrated it makes me. I don’t even use Hyprland (I did try it, though). I run KDE because I’m a dirty mouse user. I’m much too smoothbrain for a tiling WM.
Discord fails to include a libre software license text file. We do not control it, anti-libre software.
I think it’s really funny how in proprietary software, if you download stuff without asking, you’re presumed to have economically harmed a business. But in free and open source software, if you download stuff without asking, you’re presumed to have economically benefited the random individual that made the project.
If you like hyprland, use it. Just dont prompte it. Dont talk about it. Dont even mention it
Why? We like something. We share it. You may ignore it.
Attention, fame, encouragement, and engagement are also currency, and aiding fascists is fascism. We all deserve to live in a world where fascists don’t feel safe openly declaring themselves.
Because promoting hyprland is morally wrong? Its pretty simple
It is not tho
How much wrong does a person have to do for you to consider it morally wrong to promote the things they make?
It’s morally wrong to promote bad things, and morally good to promote good things.
Just because I admire the theories Isaac Newton came up with and I encourage others to learn about them does not mean I support everything Isaac Newton did, said or thought.
All of our society is built on the shoulders of giants who did a lot of “good” despite being, in most cases, “bad people”.
Thats a tangibly different example though right? Isaac Newton isn’t alive to benefit from your support so the moral downside is basically gone. If a modern genius was out here breaking new ground left and right in science but he was also a raging Nazi I certainly wouldn’t be promoting him and I’d be very wary of using any of his breakthroughs
However, let’s centre the conversation back on what it is: a flashy tiling window manager made by a bit of a knob
Why is it wrong to promote the things a shitty person makes?
It’s FOSS, so using it doesn’t give them money. On the other hand, a user might voluntarily donate if they’re unaware.
One might claim they’re being given a platform in the community by people promoting their product, but on the other hand I hear more loudly that they’re toxic, fascist and banned from various places.
Anything else to add?
I don’t have a lot that I would add, but I would just assert that the “user might donate if they’re unaware” is a big enough reason on its own. Even if you promote it alongside a caveat mentioning the moral shortcomings, the people who start using it because of your promotion might also promote it, but there’s no guarantee they’ll keep the caveat (in fact I’d consider it likely that people who will use the product despite the caveat are exceptionally likely to neglect to mention anything in their promotion).
And to your second point I’d say that its pretty indisputable that they are being given a platform, as evidenced by the platform they have. It is a platform that is, as you mention, not subscribed to by a lot of people with a moral backbone, but it is significant.
If I had to give a one-liner for why it is bad to promote the things a shitty person makes, I’d say “its a bit of a Nazi bar thing”.
My morals come from my religion and not from some arbitrary standards set by a Western supremacist, who thinks their culture is superior to everyone else and the rest of the world is “primitive”. Promoting a tool by itself is not morally wrong. It seems like some people have a very low opinion about other people. They think that others will not be able to differentiate between a tool and the morals of its makers. I am sorry that I have a much higher opinion about adults.
Who is the Western supremacist in this scenario and what relationship do they have to morality? Kinda makes or breaks your whole argument
It’s because proprietary software actually has value
(jk, I’m one of us)
A belated happy 1st birthday to this blog post
Removed by mod
Fuck hyprland
All my homies hate hyprland
Nikola Tesla and Thomas Edison could have both had kids in their basement, would that stop me from using electricity absolutely fucking not, someone invents something I like, and is useful to me, I use it, I don’t fucking care what he thinks about anything, he could be best mates with fucking Kanye and make music about how he fucked his cousin, I’d still use it, it’s open source and useful, he works on it full time from what it seems and maintains it for himself and not you lot and your huge fucking egos who think everything revolves around you. He wanted to make something he’d find useful and decided to share it with the world.
Would you stop using anything mass manufactured, just because Henry Ford, who did in fact have actual Nazi ideals, hated Jews and worker’s rights, invented the conveyor belt, and call anybody that uses mass manufactured items a fascist?
i hate to be a pedant (who am i kidding, i love to be) but they didn’t really invent electricity, so much as discover it and improve on existing technologies. ben franklin was writing about lightning rods a century before. also autoerotic asphyxiation. that’s true, look it up.
Find a better cause than this nothing burger. Literally nothing better to do but complain about some old discussion. God forbid you forgive and move on. No you said something that offended me years ago and I will not forgive such a terrible transgression. This 'look at me" posting is so tiring. Look at how great I am. Don’t worry everyone I’ll fall on the sword and call out the bad people.
but complain about some old discussion
I wouldnt think 2 years is old, and its not like he changed his mind since then, in any capacity. what he did can’t really be forgiven, except if you don’t care about the safety of your peers. yes, I said safety, because people like vaxry often find joy in harming… anyone they don’t like.
How long is enough, apologies dont matter either right? If you actually spend the time to read the infraction and response you’ll see people are just bored and looking to make themselves feel important by randomly posting stuff like this unprompted.
How long is enough,
well 2 years is obviously not old. 5 maybe.
apologies dont matter either right?
as I remember their “apology” was a very unnatural, visibly forced and offended thing
Forgive my ignorance, but what did he do?
I don’t care, i care for the tech. I don’t need to make friends with the devs of the tech nor give them my money.
They have different political views than me, yes. Does it affect the tech they develop? Not in my opinion.
Fascism is not an opinion.
Fixed that, you are correct.
Still, I don’t care if they are gay or straight communist or fascist, black yellow white or gray. Software is a tool and its apolitical.
Fascism isnt a political view either. Conservatism is a political view. It also cant be viewed the same as communism or socialism. One is based on feeding, housing and helping everyone while the other is tied to discriminating, abusing and even killing people of different ethnicity and ability.
Fascism isnt a political view either
uhhhh no? its authoritarian capitalism. Mussolini called it a merger of the corporation and the state, and he’s the guy who started it
Mussolini called it a merger of the corporation and the state, and he’s the guy who started it
That’s not what corporatism is, it’s a different meaning of the word “corporation”.
You’re absolutely correct that fascism is an illiberal capitalist ideology, but Mussolini framed their movement as pro-labour, not pro-capitalist. We must learn to recognize Classical Fascism’s class-collaborationist hypothesis as flawed and pro-capitalist, especially since this rhetoric is often echoed in social democracy.
I don’t really care, the Lemmy devs also got some funky political opinions but I’m still here
at the end of the day software is software and this stuff is all free and open source anyway
lemmy is not a great comparison, there’s like 3 alternatives, there are tens if not more hyprland alternatives.
i don’t think software is just software, why would this tech be exempt? pilot-less aircrafts is just tech, just like software, but we do remember that drones bomb people. supporting problematic developers is not “as bad” as building killing machines, but it’s the same principle: looking the other way when it’s convenient. we should aim to ostracize and isolate problematic devs, and it starts by not using their software, because doing so gives them clout and relevance
What other well supported wayland tiled window managers are out there with smooth animations? I would check them out for sure, but I only know about hyprland.
i’m not on wayland so i can’t try any of these, but there are lists you can browse from (https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Wayland#Compositors for example)
you are setting quite restrictive and arbitrary limits
well supported
what do you mean?
with smooth animations
what counts as “smooth animations”?
if your message boils down to “something which looks really good to me and that has a discord i can go into and ask for help”, you may have set the requirements tight enough to only include hyprland, but that’s not a valid excuse in my opinion to avoid boycotting problematic developers
I agree they’re restrictive and arbitrary reasons and they’re also the reasons every single hyprland user has for chosing it. You have a different set of arbitrary reasons for setting your system up the way you like. It’s called a “preference”.
In order to fulfill this preference, is it ok for me to fork hyprland and call it something else? Or do I need to rewrite hyprland’s functionality from scratch and pretend it was all my idea? Can I reference hyprland during the rewrite or does it need to be clean room? Should i make a fork available for people who disapprove of the hyprland devs? But what if I’m not a good enough person? Oof, just noticing, i forgot to check the ideologies of each maintainer of the thousands of packages in my system.
I think it’s possible that the boycott idea makes more sense in a capitalist setting than a communist one. The reason we stop supporting JK Rowling or Chick-Fil-A is because being a customer directly translates to their success and thus the success of their ideology. But no one is making a profit from developing and maintaining a Linux package. In fact, typically the more people use your package, the more thankless work falls on you.
I’m simply interested in having control over my PC, and the FOSS community exists to exchange learnings and code to enable each other to do that. And like all of science throughout history, there are problematic people who contribute useful ideas, and I think we would be cutting off our own noses to reject those ideas just because they come from people we otherwise disagree with.
preference is s weak motivation honestly. i prefer google maps yet i still don’t want google and make do with OSM
I’m simply interested in having control over my PC
but you don’t, you still depend on vaxry. can you maintain, update, fix and recompile hyprland yourself? if so, fork it and start boycotting vaxry. if not, what control are you talking about? it’s just preference
this whole argument to me sounds like “i prefer a WM with smooth animations and an active discord so im going to overlook the problematic maintainer im going to give clout to and start depending on”
i prefer google maps yet i still don’t want google and make do with OSM
Do you see the important difference between your example of preference and mine? My preference is a specific set of features, yours is a specific product.
fork it
Hah, I felt I already poked a dozen holes in that position. If you’d like to actually back up your position, I welcome it.
and an active discord
You keep bringing up their discord like that’s relevant to me. It’s not.
im going to overlook the problematic maintainer im going to give clout to
Yeah, I’m fully convinced you didn’t read my previous comment. For the record, I’m not downvoting you because I disagree with you, I think it’s valid to criticize others in the community for their behaviour, and I respect that. I’m going to downvote you because you’re not contributing to the discussion.
I’ve heard of SwayFX, but it’s pretty niche and I doubt it comes close to the featureset of Hyprland
Fr, you can disagree with someone and still make use of the software they create. Especially because you’re not even directly supporting them monetarily.
Great, yeah, both sides are the same huh? Grow a spine.
Nobody said both sides are the same. Grow a spine
I’d rather not get banned from this community by arguing that.
At any rate that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying the political views don’t matter, the software does and its great
Luckily there’s programming.dev which I hope will be the go to lemmy for programming
Too bad it’s American.
Oh :/
The software itself does not harm anyone, considering it is free software and nobody has to contribute money to use it, i don’t care. If you feel so outraged by it, fork the software and develop your own version. At least with free software you have that option, as opposed to proprietary software where you have no option.
I’m not using Hyperland personally, but i’m not opposed to people using it.
It is a quandary.
I would not support the project monetarily because I would not want to fund the primary persons behind it.
But Hyprland is FOSS is it not? Someone could fork the project to resolve the issue you are describing.
If this does not resolve the issue in your opinion (as you seem to have concerns with the “roots” of the project), and if we go with that logic, we should be just as opposed to using the modern “Jerry” gas can as it was a Nazi invention originally.
Both good and evil people invent things - whether the thing that is invented is itself reflective or could be considered supportive of the inventors ideals varies. Nazi’s are terrible and I don’t want to support them, but at the same time I think that it is good and useful to be able to safely and effectively transport gas if needed, and I’m not so certain that function supports Nazi ideals. If I purchased the gas can from a Nazi, then it would, but nothing is being purchased in the case of Hyprland as far as I am aware.
I don’t know a tonne about Hyprland as a thing however, so my decision on whether or not to use it may also vary.
In short, you can have massive, entirely valid criticisms of the evil deeds of a person, but that does not necessarily fault everything they invent or touch, even if we would like it to. This is the crux of the Composition/Division logical fallacy if I am not mistaken, which is where we make an assumption that what is true about part of something must be applied to the rest of it without exception.
In this instance, the inventor may be evil but it does not automatically mean that their inventions are inherently evil.
If there are criticisms of Hyprland, the software itself - then it is a different matter.
But Hyprland is FOSS is it not? Someone could fork the project to resolve the issue you are describing.
I feel like this is kind of a misnomer about how FOSS software gets developed. for one the Vaxry guy is basically the only active dev of Hyprland and if you look at for example the GitHub contribution breakdown he has worked much more on Hyprland stuff than all the other contributors combined. Since this kind of work is essentially free labor for no return simply forking the project and continuing Hyprland without him is infeasible IMO - other Wayland compositors already exist, like sway or niri and some even try to fill the same niche as Hyprland like swayfx (i.e. eye candy effects and smooth animations), so I don’t really see a reason to fork Hyprland when those other compositors can do similar things while already being in active development.
If this does not resolve the issue in your opinion (as you seem to have concerns with the “roots” of the project), and if we go with that logic, we should be just as opposed to using the modern “Jerry” gas can as it was a Nazi invention originally.
Hyprland is actively being developed by a fascist and that fascist is actively being platformed within the FOSS community through it. I think that is also what OP is trying to say, it doesn’t matter if Hyprland is “good” or “bad” software.
I see. Thanks for expanding on the conversation with this thoughtful reply.
Your reply was also appreciated, thank you.
You probably don’t care about my opinion, but one of the reason I don’t really care about this is that I only have the “drama” second hand from very unreliable sources. There is the Vaxry’s version of the story which cannot be trusted because that’s conflict of interest. Then there is Drew, who according to a Distrotube video is quite a bizzare person, who really enjoys to stir the drama and write these extremely misleading “hitpieces” on famous FOSS people. The issue is that to me Distrotube is not a credible source regarding this either because he’s got for me too schizo view of the world. He has a rifle collection, in case he has to fight for his country. (including a rifle, “that’s good for children”)
So it’s just too foggy for me. Well I don’t promote Hyprland because I don’t care about my computer’s “looks” and because according to some (I think) Void dev, Hyprland code is crap. But that’s a different story. Anyways my point is that I can see why people can see it as not that bad.
edit: adding sources for the Drew, Distrotube and Void stuff, in that order. Also the Drew video relies on indirect evidence but for me it’s fairly convincing.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=NLHIIVppdMw
You don’t have to trust Drew, though. Vaxry is pretty clear on his stance on the subject.
if I run a discord server around cultivating tomatoes, I should not exclude people based on their political beliefs, unless they use my discord server to spread those views.
which means even if they are literally adolf hitler, I shouldn’t care, as long as they don’t post about gassing people on my server
that is inclusivity
Source: https://blog.vaxry.net/articles/2023-inclusiveActivists
Note how this article is not where he first stated the above. This article is where he doubles down on the above statement in the face of criticism. In the rest of the article he presents nazism as an opinion people might have that you disagree with. He argues that his silent acceptance of nazis is the morally correct stance while inclusive communities are toxic actually.
This means that it’s not just Drew or the FDO who are arguing that Vaxry’s complete lack of political stance is creating safe spaces for fascists. It’s Vaxry himself that explicitly states this is happening and that it’s intentional on his part.
unless they use my discord server to spread those views
To me that’s not controversial at all and does not suggest in the slightest that he’s a fascist, National Socialist or whatever. And he isn’t creating “safe spaces” for these kind of people either. A safe space to me means a place where said people can express their (stupid) opinion freely, which Vaxry according to this statement does not support. Also I don’t have the exact quote but in a different episode of his blogpost saga he claimed that when some person was transphobic, said person was banned. So that would also be supporting evidence that he does not create safe spaces for bigots.
If we’re talking strictly hypothetically, I’m a worse person than Vaxry because unlike me, he claims not to allow bigots to express their opinions in his dicksword server, while I am engaging in communication in a Lemmy community where being a fan of Mao or Stalin is allowed.
In the rest of the article he presents nazism as an opinion people might have that you disagree with.
He didn’t say anything about Nazism being an opinion you disagree with.
He argues that his silent acceptance of nazis is the morally correct stance while inclusive communities are toxic actually.
He does argue that his stance is morally correct but what you said is not his stance. I think the following quote implies the point he’s trying to make.
It’s important to note that there are many people who disagree on topics like religion, economic systems, LGBT issues, geopolitics, and other. For whatever reasons they may, we still should not ostracize them as long as they can interact with the FOSS community in a respectful manner, without arguing about those issues in places not meant for such discussions.
I think his point is that him disallowing ostracising of people creates communities that tolerate all kinds of people including say, LGBT people. The Nazis would be collateral damage of inclusiveness, I suppose. I’m naming specifically LGBT, since in a different quote he’s talking about illegal things in Hungary, which is famously a highly LGBT-discriminating country in the EU:
I stand by my stance that even if you are something that the country I live in disagrees with, you still are free to use, contribute to, and be a part of the greater FOSS community.
Also part of his point is that just because someone claims some other person is a bigot, does not mean that’s actually true. The former person could just be lying or otherwise twisting the truth, therefore it’s important to be inclusive:
They will try and find things that you do outside of your proffessional persona, or often infer, guess, meddle with, or lie about what you say and stand for.
He didn’t say anything about Nazism being an opinion you disagree with.
This is literally the only point the article makes and there’s no point even discussing it further if you’re too blind or dishonest to admit that.
What’s Hyprland?
yeah the only thing it makes me think about is the bbc special with tom baker talking about what hypertext could be like before it was really anything.
its a window manager for Linux
I see. Thanks!
