Hey all. Getting right to it:
Last November, a majority of my wife’s family voted trump. I immediately made known my disgust and that I had no interest in maintaining relationships with any of them. My wife is equally appalled, but family is important to her and she chooses to compartmentalise it for the sake of their relationships. That’s her call. Typically, her mother comes to stay at our house for an extended period as we live far away, and this year I tolerated her being here for the sake of my wife.
But now, thinking about the next visit and how bad things have gotten, I can’t even stand the thought of having her in my house, let alone being in the same room as her. I really don’t want her here at all, but I will again tolerate her for my wife’s sake. However I think it’s likely that I will make myself pretty scarce during that time.
So the ethics question is - given that I expressed my distaste after the election but still remained cordial, is it ok, ethically speaking, to become more resentful as the consequences of their actions become more apparent? Or, given that what has happened since is pretty much out of everyone’s hands, am I locked in to the level of hostility I showed immediately after?
I guess the distilled version is - a person does X, I express disapproval. Is it ethical to express MORE disapproval as additional unforeseen consequences of X become apparent?
Thanks for your thoughts!
Edit to Clarify - My mother in law is not MAGA and I don’t think she’s enjoying any of it. She thinks we can “just not talk about it” and everything will be fine. However she has become more racist and judgemental (anti-trans etc) in recent years. Hates Joe Biden and Kamal Harris but can’t or won’t say why. Thanks for the responses so far and I’ll try to respond, but I’m about to start work shortly.
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I have a similar situation and I’ve landed on “my first duty is to my wife.” What that means to you may be different than what it means to me, but that’s where you should start IMO.
To the TL;DR question, absolutely it’s ethical to be more upset as more bad things happen.
You succinctly stated exactly my thoughts on this.
I’m like you, my first obligation is always to my wife, that’s the promise I made. But it’s never tested my principles before. I’ve already decided I’m just going to be scarce during those times. There’s been a lot of good advice here, but I was actually more interested in what ethics scholars would say regarding me feeling angrier as time goes on. The targets of my anger haven’t done anything more to deserve additional anger, it’s the consequences of what they did that continue to make me angry…
These people are guilty of crimes against humanity many times over. Crimes against the American people, war crimes, treasonous acts against the constitution…you name it.
You shouldn’t feel obliged to entertain people who support that. Zero consequences for these people means zero reconciliation for their atrocious behavior.
In the wise words of Christopher Walken:
This is where I’m at. I have a hard time scrounging up any kindness or forgiveness. I also have a hard time accepting the ignorance excuse when we’ve all seen the last 10 years of trump.
Do they show any kind of remorse, like “I didn’t think it would be that bad”, denial “I don’t believe [bad thing] actually happened”, or are they straight-up going “serves them right, fuck them kids”? If it’s the third option, I wouldn’t even let them into my house anymore.
Kind of in the middle, ignore it and it doesn’t exist. If she was full maga then definitely not allowed in the house. My wife’s 2 sisters are and I’ve made it clear they shouldn’t bother coming to our city expecting to be invited into our home.
Disapproval continues to be appropriate until they repent. Resentfulness harms only yourself, and should be avoided if possible. Overall I think you’re walking the line pretty well so far.
Do they try to talk politics while around? If so I’d fucking unload on their sorry asses (depending on how the wife would react). One of the most common themes I’ve seen among supporters is they have a very small single issue they claim as the sole reason. So forcing them to address the full ramifications I feel is prudent.
If they don’t try to talk politics, I’m not sure what I would do. But I’d definitely be making sure my wife wasn’t enduring some extra trauma for the sake of family. You could try helping her realize she had the power to cut them out of her life and she can be just fine.
Yeah she’s one of those “for the economy” types. But I don’t believe it from anyone who voted trump. We all saw the entirety of his first term, and J6. On top of that, in my opinion anyone who says they voted for him for the economy is tacitly admitting they knew he was going to hurt people, but chose to ignore that because they thought it would benefit them personally.
Usually I’d think that a person’s political opinions /choices are their own and they’re entitled to it and we shouldn’t allow it to divide us but your country is fucked. What’s been happening and the atrocities played upon the people in your country is beyond fucked and appalling. Unless she is able to see this and regrets her decision, I believe she is still responsible and complicit to what is happening.
This is a real extreme circumstance what is happening in your country and my comment is really on the exception here. Those who voted Trump and still don’t regret it are fucked in the head somewhere.
Well, didn’t want to advertise the fact, but we got ourselves and our daughters out about 10 years ago, and a big driver of that was everything that’s happening now. I’ve never been a US citizen, but I lived there for a decade and have a lot of fondness for the place. My wife has always loved her country and considers herself a patriot, but she has no intention of ever setting foot on US soil again.
You reminded me of one of my favorite quotes. I bet your wife will like it too:
“Patriotism is supporting your country all the time and your government when it deserves it.” - Mark Twain
For your spouses sake, just stfu and dont engage with her regarding politics. Ask your spouse how she wants you to be, since the mother-in-law visiting is performative for you anyways, and you love your spouse more than you are obligated to tolerate your MIL.
Agree. I scrolled down in comments thinking I’m going to get downvoted for saying what I think. OP needs to chill. OP, is Trump going to be allowed to make you want to drive a wedge between your wife and her mother? Compartmentalise. Your wife’s family is not solely responsible for what Trump has done.
I love podcasts and I will always recommend from there. This is a fantastic episode from a fantastic series… please have a listen:
You Are Not So Smart: 306 - I Never Thought of it That Way - Mónica Guzmán (rebroadcast) - How to have more productive conversations in a highly partisan, polarized, and politicized world
You could probably make the case that I need to chill, but you seem to be making a few incorrect assumptions. I have no intention of interacting with my mother in law any more than absolutely necessary, and the sole reason she may be coming to visit ever again is because I don’t want to drive a wedge between my wife and her mother. I also don’t hold my wife’s family responsible, but by voting for him last November they all became part of the trump crowd who I collectively blame. No more, no less.
I’m definitely going to listen to that podcast. Thanks!
I’ve been gently easing the missus into the idea that I’m not going to be hanging out with her mother if she visits again. I can tell she’s conflicted, because on the one hand she’s always been exceptionally close with her, but on the other she’s just as disgusted as I am. I think we’d both be relieved if she just doesn’t visit anymore, which seems like a possibility.
Put a rainbow flag in the room where she sleeps. 😋
Maybe a picture of Reagan with quotes of how Russia is the enemy, and tariffs are bad for everybody.She does love Reagan… 😆
a picture of Reagan with quotes of how Russia is the enemy, and tariffs are bad for everybody.
That’s particularly good.
I can’t really offer specific advice on this situation. I don’t know. But I will say, in general separating from the person who’s victimized by propaganda just helps the propaganda spread. A lot of this stuff actually has deliberate features and habits that it tries to instill into people, to make it drive away people who might talk sense into them and make it harder for them to hear sense if someone does say it to them.
I think you should view your MIL as a victim of propaganda, similar to a drug addict or a person with significant trauma in their life. A lot of them are victims. Of course, if she’s telling you “I’m glad they’re snatching all those US citizens and deporting them to hellish nightmare prisons in other countries just because they’re Hispanic,” then maybe you want to shun her. But usually what’s happened is that they’ve gotten so twisted up in their perceptions that they think that what they’re saying and supporting is something really good, and everyone should support it. The stuff that she is victimized by is incredibly powerful, it’s not surprising to me that a lot of people get taken in by it.
Like I say it’s hard to give general advice about what you should do. But this may help you to be more gentle with her even if you are aware of the hatefulness at work in the stuff she was victimized by and have some understandably big feelings about it.
This is the ultimate high road I think, something to aspire to, if I can get my internal rage under control! It’s somewhat futile though, I’ve lost count of how many times she’s said “We never made more money than we did under Reagan” and then I’ve tried to explain to her that all that money she made was US debt that still hasn’t been repaid. But I think this reponse is ethical, pragmatic, and sympathetic.
Yeah. It sounds cliche, but “listen with your heart” is really accurate. She’s saying she misses the old days when America worked. That’s not wrong (I mean for white people it’s not, I would recommend not to go down that rabbit hole lol). A lot of it isn’t about what you say to her, it’s how you say it. If everything you say sounds cold and factual and correcting her, of course she’s not going to want to listen and it’s just going to be a hostile interaction.
It is tough. My experience with stuff like this is that they just live in a whole different reality, so it is hard to get a foothold. I had to work really hard at having conversations with people for whom the tone of voice and emotional intent is a huge part of how they process the information (which I think is most people). That’s not how I operate, so it was hard to keep it in mind without coming off as fake or condescending, but if you’re genuine about what you mean and focus on sort of the core of why you came to your beliefs (not the facts but the reasons why you care about the facts so much), a lot of times it comes across better. And then on top of that, you’re dealing with someone where their factual understanding of the world is off in la-la land, so it’s hard to not just lecture them or tell them what’s what.
Like that kind of thing about Reagan, my first reaction to the answer is “Yeah, and have you wondered why that hasn’t ever happened since then? Why everyone was doing okay until the late 80s and then it all went to hell and hasn’t come back? Honestly that’s what I want, is to get back to when working people had a fair shake and people could make a living. Don’t you want that? It sure as hell is not happening now under Trump…”
But again, it’s not the words, it’s the intent behind them. If you’re reasonable and you care, then it’s hard for her to take your statements hostile even if she doesn’t agree with them (honestly I can guarantee you that one conversation or even several about it will not change her mind.) But you can sort of plant seeds and then she’ll come around on her own, or if she does not then oh well.
If she is being overtly hateful on her own then it’s different. IDK what you can even do then. But mostly in my experience it is people who are so twisted up that they think the Democrats are so hateful that of course things X, Y, and Z make perfect sense and are the only humane thing to do. Mostly.
Excellent advice, truly. I’ll start practicing! Thank you.
You don’t have to agree with your family’s politics. It’s basically guaranteed a huge chunk will disagree with you on something. Just don’t talk about politics with them since it upsets you so much.
It’s perfectly reasonable to steer the conversation away from politics if it comes up, and if they insist, particularly at your house, be a bit more direct about not having political discussions over the dinner table.
This is like telling someone living in Germany in 1932 to just chill and steer the conversation away from Hitler if it comes up.
Which they probably did to keep themselves and their families save, so that wasn’t that good of a comparison tbh.
Considering what happened after 1932 I think it is a good comparison.
Just make sure she’s aware of the consequences of her actions. The amount of detail or tangentiality is up to you. If she’s smart she’ll STFU about it and it can be civil, if not cordial. But feel free to pull out the “I’m glad you like it when they zip tie kids” as needed.
I think I’d prefer to leave that to my wife, who isn’t shy about doing that. I got involved one time earlier this year (alcohol was involved) and I ended up being the asshole in the wife’s eyes. It was grossly unfair in my opinion, but that one time was enough for me to stay out of it permanently. Next visit I think I’m just going to not be around. I have a home office to hide in.
Resentfulness is a reaction, not a position to take.
You can either say “she’s not welcome” or “we agree to disagree and will not discuss it” and then stick to it. Your choice. But letting (welcoming?) her into your home and then resenting her presence is childish.
Take a stand, one way or another. If you let her come, then deal with it like an adult.
I immediately like and respect you. But there is some nuance. It’s not so much “letting her into my home” as it is “not preventing my wife from seeing her mother.” I’ve been preparing my wife for me to not be hanging out with them like I used to, I’ll be somewhere else or hiding out in my office.
I guess I should have been a bit clearer, but I was genuinely academically curious to know whether my increasing anger is legitimate. The general consensus seems to be it depends on their level of remorse (if any) over their choice. And that makes sense. From what I saw during this year’s visit, the MIL would just like to ignore all of it, but I don’t think that’s ok either. Fucking trump!
It’s your and your wife’s home. So your rules apply. Make that agreement with your wife beforehand. So there are no fights afterwards.
Things like;
- She must not address you. Basically act as if the other person does not exist.
- The visit will be as short as reasonably possible. For longer bouts with her daughter, your wife can visit her mother.
- She must be humble and accept the extreme difference in views.
She must not address you. Basically act as if the other person does not exist.
The MIL has already offered to not engage in politics, take her up on the offer. Batting away the olive branch just comes off as childish.
That’s not what olive branch means.
Then explain it.
What do you think "olive branch” means in this situation?
It means nothing in that situation. She’s not giving anything, she’s demanding not to be challenged.
fill your house with tons of progressive decorations. Lots of lgbt+ and such and a painting of biden above the mantel. really do it up. then have her visit as much as she likes.
Progressive talk radio on in the background at all times?
Progressive talk radio does exist and came be pretty good.
I LOVE this idea. I’m doing it! I think a trans pride flag would look great on my back porch!
I actually talked with my wife about the scenario and she did not want a big picture portrait of biden because of looks. We agreed we would do a double with obama and pritzker side by side and then smaller ones with biden, clinton, sanders, etc maybe underneath (not really but in our fantasy setup).
Depends on how much you value your wife.
