[edit: I thank everyone for their comments and time. A lot of very interesting opinions and view points. Unfortunately also a lot of things that went away from the actual answer. So I’m thinking maybe this thread can be closed without deleting it?]
The more I hear people talk about it who aren’t cis-het men, the more I hear criticism about the concept. But so far, I’ve only heard people say that it’s stupid, that it’s not a thing, that it’s men’s own fault etc. But I’ve yet to understand where that criticism comes from. I don’t want to start a discussion on whether or not it’s real or not. I just want to understand where the critics are coming from.
Cis man here.
It’s an issue. It comes in lots of different colors and flavors but it all stems from social issues.
There’s lots of reasons, some men were never taught about social relationships, men tend to generally be less interested in social interaction thus giving them less experience, some men are ostracized when talking about their social struggles, and these are on top of preexisting environmental factors and preexisting mental conditions.
At this point it’s important to say: it’s not a contest for genders. Trans people have it hard, nb people have it hard women have it hard. It’s just that this is one of the rare times men’s struggles are not addressed properly.
I can tell you I probably have about 50 men in my life that I ko and wo are nice but if I had to talk to a man about my struggles socially, there are 2 men.
Now couple this with the fact 90% of men I had deeper conversations with told me they are struggling with depression and some of them having suicidal ideations, it is fair to assume we have a problem.
For me, the depression is always exacerbated by social isolation. It makes sense - not getting some feedback from other people can get you into crazy headspaces and there are thinking patterms that literally make you hurt yourself just to make it stop.
There’s another aspect: we are social creatures and as soon as you don’t get enough “social exposure” it’s harder to learn social cues and “get the vibe”, and other people notice. So the more you isolate, the harder preceding social interaction become and the harder it is, which in turn incentivizes isolating. A vicious cycle.
Now not everyone has these issues and I would never say that it’s the most important issue in our current society but every time I hear suicide statistics by gender it really puts into perspective that we should get to know those people who we have failed.
One thing I also wanna address is the idea that “men are never taught how to socialize”, because I think it implies a lot of things. First, I’m sure a lot of men are not, but a good number of men are. I was for example. It didn’t help, but that was never the issue for me. Second, it implies men want to be taught. I spoke to a group of 2 men and 2 women with mental disabilities about if they ever considered complete social isolation. The men said yes and the women said no. I think this is really significant and can give insight into why this is affecting men more than other genders. I would infer from this that women always see the benefit in social interaction, and men pursue social interactions rather as a means to an end. This might be a stretch but this supported by other observations of friends and family.
This topic is really important and I hope it gets talked about more - for the benefit of everyone who wants to see people become happier. The men affected by loneliness, as well as the people who deal with them.
men can be very social and still get nothing but negative feedback from others.
a big part of this is that men are rarely given positive feedback in life from anyone. with maybe the exception of your work where your ‘feedback’ is your pay raises/promotions.
personally in my life, when good stuff happens… people arne’t happy for me. They are often jealous or hostile. Most of my exes would downplay my successes. “oh you got a $5000 raise, why wasn’t it 10,000” etc. It really sucks the joy out of life to be around that type of thing. it’s also why i’m way happier being single and limiting my socialization… because i’ve stopped getting constantly negative feedback from other people even when it should be positive. i’ve also had so much more success the past few years due to that.
and frankly, most of the ‘social cues’ and ‘vibe’ that i’ve dealt with in my social groups is all negative crap. i’d rather remain ignorant of it than join some group where we circlejerk how great we are and complain about how awful everyone else is. i used to do a lot of volunteering and a lot of that stuff just devolves into people who want to do nothing and virtue signal.
men tend to generally be less interested in social interaction
Is that the case, because they are men, or because they are afraid?
Piggybacking on this comment: it’s incredibly rare for men to get approached, it’s incredibly common for women to get approached.
Both of these situations have downsides, but right now we are talking about men, so let’s ignore the downsides for women right now.
If you are the one who has to approach somebody if you want to start up any kind of relationship (from casual acquaintance to friend, to romantic relationship), that means you will be on the receiving end of rejection, by definition. If you are in the “approaching” role, and you’d reject somebody, you just don’t approach them. So by definition, it’s quite rare when being approached that you are rejected by the person who approached you.
So while women have to reject a lot of approaches they don’t want, men get rejected quite often. A socially inept woman is a wallflower, a socially inept man is a creep.
If you have been rejected too often (and maybe too harshly), this might easily turn into a sour grapes situation (“I can’t do social interaction, so I don’t want social interaction”) due to fear of rejection.
What you are raising is a very delicate subject but let’s call it what it is: dating sucks. No matter your gender, there’s hurdles, it’s just really hard to find someone who’s putting effort in. If you’re a woman, it’s because lots of people matching you will be absolute garbage. A friend showed me who was writing her and most of it was weird and creepy. If you’re a man, it’s hard to find someone who wants to write with you period. And any other genders deal with an equally limited dating pool.
It makes sense, it’s statistics, mathematically plausible, but damn it sucks. Unfortunately I think we are at the point where these conversation are bound to get eroded by inflammatory rhetoric. So these nuanced discussions are things for the future.
Totally, dating sucks for all genders, no question about that. The issues are just different and pretty much mirrored.
A friend showed me who was writing her and most of it was weird and creepy. If you’re a man, it’s hard to find someone who wants to write with you period.
Yeah, that’s exactly it.
Unfortunately I think we are at the point where these conversation are bound to get eroded by inflammatory rhetoric.
That’s also not wrong.
Tbh, I think the most important thing (not only in regards to dating but in regards to society at large) is to counter the individualization trend. It just makes people very lonely in general. It separates young men from resources needed to develop into more socially acceptable people, it separates people from their support groups in general and it just makes things really hard for everyone who’s not perfectly well adjusted for the individualist life style.
I’m a very fluid person. So I think I have great inside in the differences between genders and sexualities in loneliness.
A lot of it have to do with “be approached”.
As a woman presenting person a get approached a lot, a lot of people I don’t know want to talk with me. It’s ridiculously easy to make new acquaintances and friends. Everyone wants to talk and be around you.
As a male presenting person I also get approached a lot when I’m in “gay spaces”. Again it’s impossible to be alone unless I voluntarily would want to.
Yes, these two have the handicap that a lot of approaches are “sex related” of by people wanting sex. But not all of them, among so much approaches there’s always some that doesn’t just want sex.
Then, as a male presenting person in not gay spaces and even more so in straight spaces. I don’t get approached, never, at all. Zero people talk to me just because they want to be near me. If I want to meet somebody I always have to be the one initiating the approach.
In my experience this is the root of the issue. And the experience that most people complaining about “male loneliness” are talking about.
There are other type of loneliness. As a Queer I’m quite familiar with loneliness related to being different, and people literally hating you for what you are, or not accepting you. But that’s a different thing. The male loneliness is that feeling of having the burden of all your relationships in your shoulders, knowing that if you don’t go after people people won’t ever go after you. And that can be devastating with time. Because your self worth get tanked, specially if you are introvert and have a hard time approaching people.
I suppose it won’t end until it get normalized to approach cis men the same way it’s normalized in the other situations I talked about. The reason of why people don’t approach cis men as easy can be discussed, I get that there’s a fear/danger factor in approaching a cis male, specially after being approached by so many menacing people in your life. But still, I do think the root of the issue is that. And there’s also de commodity of knowing that you don’t need to approach a cis man because some will approach to you regardless, so you don’t even need to try. I’m the first guilty of it. I don’t approach men either, I always wait for them to approach me, because I know they will, so why bother approaching? I suppose there’s a great imbalance. Maybe if men would go into strike and refuse to approach people the balance would be restored, who knows.
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No, that’s not it. You are seeing your experience (and the experience of people around you, all living in the same society at the same time) and extrapolate that to the “very human nature”.
Just go back 50 years and you have all these structures making it easier for men to keep contact. You had fraternities, churches, unions, clubs, associations and so on, all designed to pick up young men, give them structure, give them contacts and help them being part of something bigger. All that failed some time in the 70s or 80s with the individualism movement that valued individualism over every kind of group.
If you go back even further, social structures were even stronger, with even things like arranged marriage being commonplace in many societies. In societies where that was common, there was no expectation at all that a young cis man would have to approach women at all.
Don’t extrapolate your experience to all of human-kind. It is almost never correct.
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Certain = most. And you might have misunderstood what survivorship bias means.
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Human nature is evolutionary.
Never say never.
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Hey look at this guy! He’s met every human that’s ever existed, ignored all the times that humans have been good and caring, and has decided that we’re completely cooked!
But for real, I get that misanthropes are “in” right now, but if you look for the helpers, you will generally find them. Most people in the world are not out to cause pain - actively malicious people are rare. We just focus a shit ton of our attention on them.
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Is saying “not everyone is shitty” toxic positivity? I’m not denying the presence of malicious humans, but the first step to becoming a bad person is believing that everyone else is too.
What’s your end goal here - what are you trying to communicate? Just that the world is bad and people should agree with that fact and do nothing?
I don’t really mean to say that you can’t express your feelings on the Internet or that they aren’t valid, but I do just want to kinda poke people who seem to be in this “people are awful” mindset and point out that our psychology and our information ecosystem are all heavily biased towards the negative, but it’s not the complete picture.
Evolution is not our friend. Evolution favours reproductive fitness, not happiness. Happiness is just one of many tools in the toolbox for getting us to reproduce.
The current situation with low birth rates due to the availability of contraceptives is a temporary blip. Right now you can witness a wide range of forces arrayed against that status quo. Note that for humans, evolution operates not only at the genetic level but also at the cultural level since parents can pass their culture on to their children.
We’re witnessing a major backlash and reaction against secular liberalism, a return to authoritarianism and a revival of religious membership. Religion has always been one of the most powerful of evolution’s cultural weapons for increasing reproductive fitness.
The male loneliness is that feeling of having the burden of all your relationships in your shoulders, knowing that if you don’t go after people people won’t ever go after you. And that can be devastating with time.
I don’t know if I’ve ever seen it put so succinctly. Maybe this isn’t everything, but it is the root of the feeling for me. I’m constantly reaching out and checking in and it’s more rare for the reverse to happen (though it’s really important to notice when it does, which is something I’m trying to do more now).
Yep. It’s also incredibly draining to have to do all the work. Nobody will ever reach out to you first. You must always be reaching out.
I gave up on romantic relationships mostly, because I was doing 90% of the work. And if I wanted a break, I was told I was being a ‘not a real man’. I bought a house and got pets. My pets don’t demand I do all the work for them. They actually communicate and appreciate.
After reading most of these comments I’ll have to say this comment resonated the most with me. It’s exhausting to always be the one who needs to put in effort to talk to new people, and then you need to maintain it pretty much one sidedly as well, you end up just giving up on it and looking more for good friends to rely on than romantic things.
I’ve heard from female friends that there are women also dealing with this so it’s not a uniquely male thing, but social norms have sadly made it so and it really gets to you as a guy when you’re not also being pursued by people. I’ve seen some nice clips tangential to this asking women when was the last time they bought flowers for a guy and some of them couldn’t think of an instance.
It’s rough out there, and unless you’re at the top of your game (mental health wise) it’s a huge struggle, and with the economy as it is a lot of people people sadly are having a tough time dealing with it, but as you say women are usually better trained to work together on this stuff, whereas guys largely aren’t and suffer alone as a consequence.
I’m lucky to have some good male and female friends I can open up to, but I definitely feel like the exception on that.
One of my female friends bought me a cake in college for my birthday.
Only person who ever bought me a cake for my birthday my entire life (other than parents a s child). No other friend, or girlfriend, ever did that for me. Most of my girlfriends ‘gifts’ to me was usually something they wanted for themselves, like buying me fancy towels so they could use them in my bathroom.
This is so incredibly accurate
Two criticisms that come to mind are:
- the cause of the epidemic is the patriarchy, therefore it’s men’s own fault, i.e. the rigid gender roles and “man up attitude” are within the power of individual men to overcome and they just need to um… man up and break down those barriers.
- the cause of the epidemic is men trying to cling to the benefits they would have otherwise under the patriarchy and it’s a reaction to non-men having more status and freedom.
(Before you hit reply please remember OP didn’t ask for an discussion on if these are real or correct - just what some of the criticisms are. I’m not saying I buy into either of them.)
im one of those people who does not know what cis-het means? As far as I can tell cis means typical or normal or such.
Cis effectively means not-transgender, so born as exacly the same gender you identify as. ‘Het’ then means heterosexual, making cis-het someone who is either completely male and into women or completely female and into men.
I have definitely heard cis in terms of cognition so I don’t think its specific to sexuality.
It is a prefix that isn’t specific to gender (I don’t know of a particular use in sexuality though that doesn’t mean there isn’t one), but in other uses that I know of, it isn’t used by itself as a descriptor of an aspect of a person’s identity, but as part of some other word. It basically means the opposite of trans (as a prefix, so not just “cisgender means someone that isn’t transgender”, but anywhere that the prefix trans- could be used, for example, when talking about spacecraft visiting the moon, the space farther away from earth than the moon is is sometimes referred to as translunar space, and conversely, the space between the earth and the moon can be called cislunar space). In general, if one is talking about people, especially if it’s just used by itself with nothing else attached, it just refers to everyone other than transgender people.
Similarly, carbon=carbon double bonds in fatty acids can have the free hydrogens either on the same side or on opposite sides of the double bond, and are known respectively as cis or trans fatty acids.
Cis means same as opposed to trans which means opposite it’s commonly used to describe the shape of molecules in chemistry but is also used to say if a persons birth sex is the same (cis) or different (trans) then their gender
Het is short for hetero which means different vs homo which means the same so if you had homogenized milk it’s all uniform and the same vs a heterogenous mixture which would have some areas of extra fat. Those are used as hetero and homo sexual where a homosexual likes people of the same sex and heterosexuals like people of the opposite sex
So a cis het male is a dude whose not trans who likes banging chicks
Yeah I think its just im not in the group that uses the latin term and expects it to have gender meaning. I swear I have heard it used in terms of cognitive type. Anyway Im good in terms of this conversation and will get use to the lingo over time.
I was just as confused when I first heard the terms lol
Ok now that I know my terms I am apparently a cis-het man and don’t feel this and don’t know anyone who does so its a bit hard to know how or why it may be happening. I am older though so is this possibly more prevalent in an age group? Although also im an introvert so don’t need all that much people interaction to not feel lonely.
Robert Putnam wrote an influential essay called “Bowling Alone” about the weakening social institutions in American society, and the accompanying rise in loneliness. It was published in 1995 and eventually adapted into a full length book published in 2000.
It’s not new. But the trend lines that could be seen in the 90’s have only gotten worse, as we’ve lost or weakened many of the social institutions that used to keep us grounded in our communities.
Its deff a thing in Millennial age groups too but it is really about 20s something age group.
It is notale specific. It is symptom of poor socio economic co conditions and infrastructure designed for suburban trash lifestyle
Much of our media depicts men in successful relationships, handsome, with a good circle of friends, decent jobs etc.
Guys see this and think there’s something wrong because their reality isn’t matching that media.
It’s more exciting to think you’re observing a widespread social phenomenon than to admit your expectations were shaped by fiction.
Hot take: healthy relationships, having friends, having a job, and taking care of yourself are pretty normal.
Not having some of these things is fine. But if you feel like you hopelessly can’t get one or more of them, then that is a legitimate problem in your life, and it is completely normal to feel bad about that.
Lots of guys are held back by looks and/or confidence.
Yeah? I mean, this is factually true, but I’m not sure why you are bringing it up.
Sure, it’s common to have healthy relationships, friends, a job, and take care of yourself.
However, it’s also common to endure brief or extended periods of not being able to do these things for a whole variety of reasons. It might be illness, caring for loved ones, children, loads of things.
Six figure income, six feet tall, six inch dick.
Anything less than that, and you are no longer a man!
Being a man is tricky. Full grown males can be physically dangerous and I think there is a subtle undercurrent of worry with all men they may be dealing with a hostile moron, or a worry someone may try to assert dominance. Men are organically closed off past a certain age because of this.
Men also experience allot of these weird power dynamics growing up. Both men and women kind of seek to control and bully youger boys and men until they come into their own…and suddenly they are grown and terrifying in some respects and everyone magically backs the f*** off. The threat is gone but the history is still there and it closes men off emotionally.
Men, by and large, create toxicity within their own circles. Male culture has a lot of issues and a lot of unrealistic expectations are put in men in US society. Some external, but the majority come from inside. The whole alpha male culture bullshit that permeantes it. There’s a lot, and I mean a LOT of good that can come from healthy male culture. But right now it’s like men have a branding issue where the loudest among them are also the worst (the Andrew Tates of the world).
I’d say there’s some unavoidable bias there. If we judge the dominant masculine culture by the degree to which people emphasize masculinity then of course the loud ultra masculine people will seem like the representation.
Lots of men out there just being men
Lots of men out there just being men
True. But nobody cares about them because they aren’t bothering anyone. But they do get lumped in with the controversial men.
Like I don’t have much of a clue about Tate or any of that stuff. But if I tell people that then I’m guilty of ignorance or something and I need to ‘educate’ myself about that stuff so I can… denounce it? Because apparently just not knowing or caring is complicity or something.
It’s true that men as a broad group have a duty to confront and correct that behavior within their social groups and families etc. and that might be where that sentiment is coming from, but we live in a world where people can and do live in bubbles.
No. We don’t. We don’t have a duty to do anything anymore than women do.
Other people’s ignorance isn’t my obligation to fix. It’s their own. I am not responsible for other people’s behavior and anyone who blames me for it is an asshole. Guilt by association is a fallacy.
If you’re not calling out that kind of behavior when you encounter it among your social group then you are definitely complicit. Is it a morally corrupt position? Not necessarily, but you’re complicit and you’re enabling it.
Calling out shitty behaviour gets you shitcanned from the group. It doesn’t change the behaviour. Do you socialize much? You don’t make friends or get popular by calling out bad behaviour. You get ostracized. The rest of the group calls you an asshole and circles the wagons and enables the behaviour further.
ok, keep your asshole friends and be associated with them I guess? point proven?
Cis men have been, and mostly continue to be, the most privileged group in western society. So it’s easy to dismiss anything negative that affects them.
Dunking on young men is in vogue and socially acceptable.
They won’t pass reverse gender or race litmus test…
I kind of assume it’s the juxtaposition of “I as a white man have immense social privilege” with “I can’t get anyone to play with me”. Like, other people are worried about being abducted on the street and you’re sad you can’t play basketball with your bros?
The sadness of loneliness can be real but in contrast to other things it can feel like it needs to be triaged into a lower priority. And then some men lose their shit over that, which makes people take them less seriously.
most white men don’t have much social privileged.
it’s only the top 5-10% who have the privledge
For example, white men will generally have an easier time in public spaces. Police and shops are less likely to bother them.
privilege doesn’t mean “you have a yacht” or “you’re rich”
and if you’re black/Hispanic and you dress in a suit they won’t bother you either. esp if you hold yourself like a rich douchebag
but if you’re white and tattooed and look homeless, they will totally bother you.
It’s about class. class trumps race and sex, everytime.
Please go read https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_privilege and the related articles, such as https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality
Both is kinda true. Yes, a poor black man will be worse off than a poor white man and a middle-class black man will be worse off than a middle-class white man and so on.
But a poor white man will be worse off than a middle-class black man and a rich white man will be better off than a middle-class white man.
That’s what intersectionality means: All these things stack together instead of wiping eachother out.
If intersectionality wasn’t a thing, then any black man will always have less privilege than any white man, no matter any other circumstances. And that’s obviously crap, considering that clearly someone like Barak Obama or Will Smith has much more social privilege than any random white homeless guy.
No. I have a minor in gender studies. You can pretend Wikipedia is some sort of definitive source of truth all you want because it fits your simplified narrative of race and sex.
Reality is far more complex than that though.
I don’t believe you. Sorry.
I don’t believe you. Not sorry.
As a male who grew up around males, men are men’s worst enemy.
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In a greater context sure, but no, men are the reason.
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That’s a different conversation entirely.
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Yeah, there are psychopaths in the world, that’s not a male centric thing, it’s an always has and always will be thing, but it doesn’t account for every problem men inflict upon men and if they didn’t exist this issue would still be prevalent, you don’t have to be a fucking psychopath to fall victim to toxic masculinity and false expectations of media and society. Again, that’s an entirely different conversation.
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Wait until you find out how young women interact with each other 🤭
This is not a gender issue, it is a maturity thing
Not arguing anything otherwise, I completely agree, but women aren’t the reason men are suffering.
A lot of people can’t see things from any perspective beyond their own limited worldview. If they don’t experience a problem, it doesn’t exist or it’s not that bad and everyone should focus on their problems instead or if they are experiencing something it must be happening to everyone. I think this is causing a lot of the conflict around this issue. There is also the fact that a lot of the men complaining about this issue come at it not so much as “I’m lonely” but as “I’m not getting laid”. Which loses them a lot of sympathy.
Or it’s more about the inability to form community/family units that are so essential for human flourishing. For men and women both. And yet we have created all these biases and expecations of each other that handicap people from connecting.
I had no issue with connecting with most people I met 10+ years ago. But now it’s a struggle to even have a polite conversation with anyone under 50 for me, because their brains are so warped and they can’t take anything as is. I’ve had so many innocuous comments blow up in my face by younger folks who just leapfrog to the worst conclusions. For example I love reading classic literature… a lot of older pre 20th century stuff. That used to be something people admire. Now I get a lecture about how it makes me racist/sexist because the authors back then were all racist and sexist and if I am reading it i’m endorsing those views.
It’s insane. All the sudden my harmless hobby is now evil. I am also into cycling and I can’t talk about that now without being lectured or told how problematic it is for me to enjoy it. 10 years ago people would go ‘oh, that’s cool’. Now everything is a ‘problem’.
Or it’s more about the inability to form community/family units that are so essential for human flourishing. For men and women both. And yet we have created all these biases and expecations of each other that handicap people from connecting.
100% that is the root of the loneliness epidemic and I agree that there is a problem. I was just trying to stick to answering OPs question about why we see opposition to the concept.
It’s also an issue to have this form of generation fight. We as older men, also have an obligation to question the old ways and listen to the young people. Because yes, a lot of it is a problem. And refusing to see the problem doesn’t make it not a problem. It just makes you part of it. Doesn’t make you evil to consume certain things. But it doesn’t help if you’re not compassionate with the current views and the emotions of the younger people around you. Most people don’t even want to make anyone stop doing something, but they’d be happy to know that you’re questioning it.
It’s also an issue to have this form of generation fight. We as older men, also have an obligation to question the old ways and listen to the young people
No we don’t. I am an older man and I am dealing with all this nonsense myself. the old ways were objectively better for connecting and forming relationships. The new ways only foster shallow connections. I’d rather live in analog reality than some delusional social media bubble also.
Yeah…we are so well connected and socialised. The old ways have really proved themselves…
people want to be well connect and socialized generally are.
those who don’t, aren’t.
It’s an individual choice.
the only big difference is how much internet content is anti-male and how many sad dudes internalize it.
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Gay dude here, it seems to be. We have the loneliness epidemic here too, but we’re actually organizing and fighting it, because we’re used to do that. Our cishet counterparts are definitely not equipped to do that. Women are socalized much earlier than boys, and they’re taught that the social order is theirs for keeping. Girls are simply raised to be better at this. By the time men realize what’s happened with the natural funneling of friends through the parenting years - usually those late 20s and early 30s where it suddenly starts to become really difficult to overcome the friendship hump.
I can’t comment on the whole incels taking hold of this concept, because it’s something I’ve just had explained to me in the past week. I can definitely see the gender/sexuality lines on this in real life tho (I started and run a nonprofit to create community for GBT+ men in my state).
I do think it’s fair to describe it as a men’s issue. Because its usually describing loneliness caused by a disconnect with the image of masculinity you’ve been taught, and that which you actually exhibit. Everyone struggles with loneliness, but this is a specific kind of loneliness that is worth discussing in isolation.
My main issue with it is how a lot of men seem to think its referring to women not wanting them. It’s a very easy term to feed their persecution complex.
Do you think it’s because the are conditioned from birth that being married, or having many successful relationships with woman will make them wealthy and happy?
I think it’s important to note the incels often mean “the women I think are hot won’t fuck me”
They could find a girlfriend if they improved their personality or lowered their standards but they don’t want to do that.
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I’m a recovering drug addict. Nobody wanted to help me, rejected by everyone who wasn’t a recovering drug addict.
I got out of the loop.
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“It’s actually good to not receive help as an addict”
That’s… silly lol. Where did you pull that idea from?
It’s different because physical addiction is harder to deal with, you can die lol
I was also homeschooled in the Texas countryside as a kid… I understand being lonely… addiction is harder.
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I disagree with the sentiment that it can’t be a useful term simply because you haven’t found a peer reviewed study describing the phenomenon. I would like to see more research be done, but that doesn’t change the fact that I’m seeing the issue directly in front of my eyes.
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Can you describe what you mean by “disconnect with the image of masculinity you’ve been taught”
That is a very interesting statement but does not align with how it’s been described to me which is men can’t get laid and are horny and give up on women and just watch porn
Ah that last part makes sense as a criticism. Yes, I guess incels have taken this term to defend their sexism
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I think a lot of it comes from the fact that in incel spaces, it’s a lot of grievance and blame by men who were raised believing the world owed them certain things. And now they’re finding out that it’s really hard so rather than look inward at how they can be better and work within the circumstances they’re in, they blame wokeism and women’s empowerment for denying them their entitlement.
Dark Brandon on youtube has been doing an awesome series on incels that’s definitely worth watching. I recommend this video not just for anyone interested in incel culture, but literally anyone interested in WTF has happened to the world in the last 40 years - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBAX4Wi1iNM&list=WL&index=16
You’ve put the carriage before the horse. Incels become incels because they’re lonely/can’t speak to girls/etc. They blame the girls for this rather than try to understand why girls ignore/avoid them, usually because they are the stereotypical incel.
Also the “incel-to-trans pipeline” has too much smoke to not be a fire. It’s a “legit” path for many deluded incels.
Imo the whole incel thing is a symptom, not the cause. Many men feel lonely, lost, and useless in today’s society. Without a proper support network and raised to hide away our emotions, many of us don’t have the proper tools to tackle this monster. Then, conveniently, there are these people who tell you that none of it is your fault. That it’s not you who needs to change or improve yourself, but society that went wrong. That it’s the “woke people” who paint you as a villain, that it’s the women who deny you the “right” to a relationship .
Many men are looking for answers. And the whole incel alt-right pipeline gives easy answers. It blames everyone else. And when you’re already in a dark place, tired and lost, it can be hard to resist. Not that I want to excuse incels in any way, they’re dangerous and we have every right to vilify them. But imo they’re not the cause, just a symptom of the broader issue. And to prevent more incels from appearing, I think it’s time they men’s mental health is taken a bit more seriously. Society needs to adapt, starting from how boys are raised.
